Curse

reaper with no name · Jul 06, 2009, 04:18 PM // 16:18

On a whim, I was rechecking some calculations I made in this thread, and I went and checked it all in excel.

They didn't add up. In fact, I recieved a completely unexpected result.

The dervish beat the scythe sin.

I couldn't believe it, so I went and checked again. I couldn't find anything wrong with my calculations the second time around. So either I missed something, or the dervish just did the impossible. Either way, I'll put it all here so that you guys can inspect it and point out any flaws in my math.

Assuming 16 scythe mastery for derv
Assuming 12 scythe mastery for sin and 16 critical strikes
Assuming max ranks
Assuming derv is using By Ural's Hammer and Heart of Fury
Assuming sin is using Critical Agility

[AoHM][Asuran Scan][By Ural's Hammer][Heart of Fury]
[AoHM][Asuran Scan][Critical Agility][Critical Eye][Way of the Master]

Crit rate of derv with 16 scythe mastery is 22.9%
Crit rate of sin with 16 crit strikes and 12 scythe mastery is 17.0% + 16% = 33%
Way of the Master adds +35% to crit rate
Critical Eye adds 16% to crit rate
Total sin crit rate = 17+16+16+35=84%

Damage Rating (DR) (derv) = 5*12 + 2*(16-12) + 32 = 100
Damage Rating (DR) (sin) = 5*12 + 32 = 92

Average damage of scythe = 25 (avg of 9 and 41)
Raw damage (RD) = crit dmg + non-crit dmg
RD (derv) = 25*(1-.229) + 41*.229 = 28.664
RD (sin) = 25*(1-.84) + 41*.84 = 38.44

Effective Damage (ED) = RD*DMulti*AE
DMulti (derv)= 1.2(customized)*1.15(inscription)*1.75(AS)*1.25(Ur al) = 3.01875
DMulti (sin)=1.2(customized)*1.15(inscription)*1.75(AS)=2 .415

Armor Effect (AE) for 60 AL = 2^((DR-AL)/40)

Derv against 60 AL = 28.664*3.01875*2^((100-60)/40)=173.0589
DPS (derv) = 147.9135897

Sin against 60 AL = 38.44*2.415*2^((92-60)/40)=161.6309444
DPS (sin) = 138.1461063

It appears that in the other thread I was off by a bit in the decimals I used for some of the crit%s and I accidentally added in the Ural bonus for the sin even though it was using crit agility instead.

If we give the sin By Ural's Hammer instead of critical agility it looks like this:

DMulti is same as for derv

Sin against 60 AL = 202.0386806
DPS = 115.4506746

But then the sin is still doing less DPS because the derv is getting off 4 attacks for every 3 the sin does (or however many it is).

So the only options for IAS the sin has besides crit agility is Onslaught, Whirling Charge, and Pious Fury (none of which are 33%). the Sin isn't using his elite, so Onslaught seems the best (lasts as long as HoF). It requires speccing into wind prayers, though. So with a 12-9-10 spread (assuming a +1 to crit strikes from helment), the sin comes out this way:

crit rate = 17+11+23+10 = 61% crit rate

raw damage = 25*(1-.61) + 41*.61 = 34.76

other things are same, so...

ED = 34.76*3.01875*2^((92-60)/40)=182.6967881
DPS = 139.463197

Still not enough to beat the derv. And this is in addition to the fact that the derv's bar has more room for attack skills and those attack skills will do more damage than if a sin tried to use them thanks to higher scythe mastery.

So...unless I've made a mistake somewhere (if I have, somebody please correct me)...the dervish actually is better with a scythe than an assassin.

English Warrior · Jul 06, 2009, 04:32 PM // 16:32

derv beats assassin at its own game? shocking i couldn't guess considering the derv primary uses a scythe.....

Also different builds will make ur results differ.

zelgadissan · Jul 06, 2009, 04:34 PM // 16:34

The only thing I see that's missing is that Heart of Fury isn't a perma-IAS like Critical Agility is. Even at 16 Mysticism, it's 21s duration on a 30r. Unless I just missed it, I don't see that in there anywhere.

Also, your math is off on the way that Critical Hits are determined. If you look on wiki at Critical Hit, there's a table that shows your critical hit percentage with Critical Strikes at 16 with Way of the Master and Critical Eye up - 55%. Basically, even though it says +%, it's still multiplicative.

Desert Rose · Jul 06, 2009, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Crit rate of sin with 16 crit strikes and 12 scythe mastery is 17.0% + 16% = 33%
Way of the Master adds +35% to crit rate
Critical Eye adds 16% to crit rate
Total sin crit rate = 17+16+16+35=84%

Afaik crit chance is multiplied, not summate, so the correct crit chance should be around ~65%.

Quote:

Average damage of scythe = 25 (avg of 9 and 41)
Raw damage (RD) = crit dmg + non-crit dmg
RD (derv) = 25*(1-.229) + 41*.229*1,41 = 32.51349
RD (sin) = 25*(1-.65) + 41*.65*1,41 = 46.3265

crit damage = max damage * radical of two

Quote:

Effective Damage (ED) = RD*DMulti*AE
DMulti (derv)= 1.2(customized)*1.15(inscription)*1.75(AS)*1.25(Ur al) = 3.01875
DMulti (sin)=1.2(customized)*1.15(inscription)*1.75(AS)=2 .415

AS? Attack speed?
edit: Asuran Scan.

Average damage per hit: 32.51349*1.15*1.2*2^((100-60)/40)*1.25(Ural)=112.1715405
Average damage per hit: 46.3265*1.15*1.2*2^((92-60)/40)=~111

However, [[Heart of Fury] is only active about 18*1.2=22 of ~31 seconds, [[Critical Agility] is pretty much always active.

DPS: (112.1715405/0.67)*0.73(HoF is active) + (112.1715405/1)*0.23(HoF is not active) = ~148
DPS: (111/0.67)*1 (CA always active) = ~166

Picuso · Jul 06, 2009, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by English Warrior

Also different builds will make ur results differ.

This.

Maybe you should re-do your maths assuming sin is using Ural's too.

IronSheik · Jul 06, 2009, 05:03 PM // 17:03

What frontline uses 16 anything in PvE, granted it can hold aggro a bit better, I never saw myself using it.

Gift3d · Jul 06, 2009, 05:07 PM // 17:07

you're forgetting the part where the derv runs completely out of energy in 10 seconds flat because mysticism is a bad joke.

reaper with no name · Jul 06, 2009, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Ok, so, that makes the sin even worse off then.

Yeah, that's a good point about the perma-IAS, though.

Fortunately, that's easily checked. For every 30 seconds, the dervish has 21 sec of HoF (assuming 20% enchanting mod and 13 mysticism).

So DPS = damage dealt during HoF + damage dealt after it = 147.9135897*(21/30) + (173.0589/1.75)*(9/30) = 133.2067528

Ok, now to recalculate what the sin can do.

crit rate = 55%+?*?

Hmmm...Crap, I don't know how to do the multiplicative thing, so I'll just pretend for a minute that the base weapon crit adds with the crit modifier

First with critical agility and no ural's hammer (16 crit strikes)

crit rate = 55+17=72%
RD = 25*(1-.72)+41*.72 = 36.52
ED=36.52*2.415*2^((92-60)/40) = 153.5578067
DPS = ED/1.17 = 131.2459887

Not quite enough.

Ok, now with Ural's Hammer instead of critical agility. Using the 12-9-10 spread in the last post, that would be 37% crit. Again, due to my fail multiplicative skills, I'll be lazy and assume that the +% adds to base crit.

crit rate = 17+37 = 54%

RD = 25*(1-.54)+41*.54 = 33.64

ED = 33.64*3.01875*2^((92-60)/40) = 176.8101252

At 9 wind prayers, onslaught (the longest lasting non-crit agility IAS sin can get) lasts 14 sec and takes 20 sec to recharge.

DPS = (176.8101252/1.17)*(14/20) + (176.8101252/1.75)*(6/20) = 136.0941428

That is slightly more than the dervish, but it assumes that base crit and crit modifiers are added together (uncertain), and it discounts the extra damage from attack skills that a dervish would have.

Regardless, it's beginning to look like dervishes are indeed better at spiking with scythes than sins are.

reaper with no name · Jul 06, 2009, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Afaik crit chance is multiplied, not summate, so the correct crit chance should be around ~65%.

crit damage = max damage * radical of two

AS? Attack speed?
edit: Asuran Scan.

Average damage per hit: 32.51349*1.15*1.2*2^((100-60)/40)*1.25(Ural)=112.1715405
Average damage per hit: 46.3265*1.15*1.2*2^((92-60)/40)=~111

However, [[Heart of Fury] is only active about 18*1.2=22 of ~31 seconds, [[Critical Agility] is pretty much always active.

DPS: (112.1715405/0.67)*0.73(HoF is active) + (112.1715405/1)*0.23(HoF is not active) = ~148
DPS: (111/0.67)*1 (CA always active) = ~166

That's it! The extra damage from crits! That's what I forgot the second time around! I KNEW there was something I was missing!

Whew...For a moment there I was worried...

Picuso · Jul 06, 2009, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Ok, now to recalculate what the sin can do.

crit rate = 55%+?*?

Hmmm...Crap, I don't know how to do the multiplicative thing, so I'll just pretend for a minute that the base weapon crit adds with the crit modifier

Total crit = 63,65%. 64% rounded up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Ok, now with Ural's Hammer instead of critical agility.

Why are you swaping CA?

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Regardless, it's beginning to look like dervishes are indeed better at spiking with scythes than sins are.

I'm not sure about that.

Grim Aragorn · Jul 06, 2009, 05:33 PM // 17:33

sins have INFINITE energy with scythe and dont need enchantments to keep their energy up, in heavy ench removal areas the derv is gunna be sitting there auto attacking to get his energy up, where a sin can just spam the skills on recharge forever.

IronSheik · Jul 06, 2009, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Zealous Vow Goes on my derv about 90% of time

Infinite energies for spam powuh.

reaper with no name · Jul 06, 2009, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Picuso

Total crit = 63,65%. 64% rounded up.

Why are you swaping CA?

I'm not sure about that.

I swapped CA with Urals to see what would happen. It's just to check different possibilities.

The reason I say they might have a spiking edge is because they seem to win out until HoF wears off.

Grim Aragorn · Jul 06, 2009, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Zealous Vow Goes on my derv about 90% of time

Infinite energies for spam powuh.

wasting elite for energy management, thanks for proving my point

IronSheik · Jul 06, 2009, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Aragorn

wasting elite for energy management, thanks for proving my point

What point? Zealous vow with AoHM and Asuran Scan (Staples on a scythe bar imo) along with Eremites, mystic, and protectors, are completely spammable with Vow, along with energy to spare. You don't need an IAS with that build because attack skills don't take the 3/4 they say to trigger in succession.

It still may not be as high DPS as a sin, but those 3 skills can overall attack faster than one.

Grim Aragorn · Jul 06, 2009, 05:59 PM // 17:59

no deepwound..... sigh

AngeliqueSynner · Jul 06, 2009, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Aragorn

wasting elite for energy management, thanks for proving my point

Each person's definition of a "waste" is different.
To you it may be something unneeded, to someone else it may be essential.

Grim Aragorn · Jul 06, 2009, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngeliqueSynner

Each person's definition of a "waste" is different.
To you it may be something unneeded, to someone else it may be essential.

when the goal of your build is to deal the most damage possible, it is indeed a waste

KoKoS · Jul 06, 2009, 06:20 PM // 18:20

why are we comparing apples to watermelons? =S

totally different professions and builds..

reaper with no name · Jul 06, 2009, 06:23 PM // 18:23

It's not apples to watermelons; it's apples to genetically engineered super-apples. Conventional wisdom has it that a sin who picks up a scythe can use it better than a dervish. I was confirming it for myself for a second time and ran into a few snags.